Taking on a holistic approach to SEO
If you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably already trying to save money by doing SEO yourself.
But one of the biggest struggles for people doing DIY SEO is building backlinks.
That’s often why they resort to using an SEO agency, and let’s be honest, good SEO agencies aren’t cheap.
That’s because building quality backlinks takes a big amount of time. You’ve got to build the relationship, you’ve got to get the good content out there and even then it can take a while for those links to flow through.
But today I’ve got an amazing guest on to talk about a revolutionary idea: Can you still rank well without link-building?
Tune in to learn:
- What a backlink is, and what it does
- How you can still compete with competitors that invest heavily in backlinks
- How small local businesses can create great content that organically gets shared online
- How to assess what kind of content Google is prioritising in your niche or industry
- How using Google Analytics can show you how people engage with your website
- Why click-through rate is important to focus on
Listen to the podcast
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Connect with Nik Ranger
Useful Resources
- What the eff are entities in SEO? with Nik Ranger (NEWBIE)
- Banned Books Brochure
- SEO Forecasting: How to Predict and Plan the Future with Dan Petrovic (NEWBIE)
About Nik Ranger
Nik Ranger is Dejan Marketing’s Senior SEO Consultant, Google Womens Techmaker Ambassador and Chair of SEO Collective, a meetup with over 4,200+ members Australia-wide. She is ranked as the ‘Top SEO Experts You Should Be Following’ by Search Engine Journal with her work published in four books with Search Engine Journal and Majestic.
Fun fact: She’s an accomplished classically trained electric violinist with 28 years of experience and an illustrator and painter whose work has been featured in galleries in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne.
Transcript
Kate Toon: Do you want to know what’s really holding your website back from Google glory? Firewire Digital’s SEO audits show you exactly what’s working, what’s not, and most importantly, what to do about it. No tech jargon, just clear, actionable insights delivered by SEO experts who know their stuff, like the wonderful Brogan Renshaw, who I had on the podcast last month.
This year, get your website working as hard as you do. Visit firewiredigital.com.au/audit and for $100, you can have a detailed SEO audit delivered straight to your inbox. So if
you’re listening to this podcast, you’re probably already trying to save money by doing SEO yourself. But one of the biggest struggles for people doing DIY SEO is building backlinks. And that’s often why they have to resort to using an SEO agency. And let’s be honest, good SEO agencies aren’t cheap. And that’s because Building quality backlinks takes a big amount of time.
You’ve got to build the relationship. You’ve got to get the good content out there. And even then it can take a while for those links to flow through. But today I’ve got an amazing guest on to talk about a revolutionary idea. My goodness, can you still rank well without link building?
Hello, my name is Kate Toon and I’m the head chef at The Recipe for SEO Success. And online teaching hub for all things related to search engine optimization and digital marketing. And today we have a guest back and that is lovely Nik Ranger. Hello, Nik.
Nik Ranger: Hello. It is so great to be here. I loved my old episode.
Go check it out. It was June of 2023. but I’m here back again to have a chat with Kate. Really excited to be here. And if you’re not subscribed, please, what are you doing? Please subscribe to Kate and hit all the like buttons, notification bells, just to get all the great stuff that’s coming out of her laboratory.
Kate Toon: Oh, I love it. I wish I had a laboratory. I think we were completely different people back in 2020. Sorry. I don’t even know who I was back then. I’m going to introduce you in a minute. No, I’ll introduce you. And then I’ll talk about the thing. Let’s do the introduction. All right. Nik Ranger is Dejan Marketing Senior SEO Consultant.
Good on you. Google, Google women’s tech maker, ambassador, and chair of SEO collective, a meetup of over 4, 200 members, Australia wide. She is ranked as one of the ‘Top SEO Experts You Should Be Following’ by Search Engine Journal, and her work has been published in four books with Search Engine Journal and Majestic.
I mean, really you’ve had a meteoric rise. I’ve I’ve been watching. I’ve been watching from when she was a young girl, fresh into the SEO field, and now you’re a bit of a legend. I mean, well done.
Nik Ranger: Oh my goodness. Well, I appreciate that. Um, I don’t feel like one, to be honest. Um, but you know, that’s what you do, I guess, sometimes when you just head down, bums up, just trying to get on with it and, um, just really passionate about sharing.
What we’re doing and be able to, uh, you know, share as many stories, case studies as possible because as SEOs for us to be able to get work implemented, um, having provenance is so important sometimes and being able to have other people be able to support ideas, be on the grounds, be testing it. And, um, you know, talking about it is exceptionally helpful. It’s been helpful to me to grow my career. So I feel like the best I can do is just to share it with everyone else.
Kate Toon: Give it back. Yeah. It’s been a strong part of my journey as well. And we had a great episode, uh, which will be out by the time this is with Georgia Tan also talking about the role of women in SEO, um, and how important it is for us to have people that we can look up to and aspire to be so good on you, Nik.
Anyway, we’re talking about something a little controversial today, I love that you picked this topic, uh, because you actually did a post on LinkedIn, you said with various topics and this one got a lot of comments, right?
Nik Ranger: Oh, absolutely.
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Nik Ranger: Sometimes I just. I’m working on so many different things that I don’t know what’s interesting to folks out there.
So I put a poll up and I had an overwhelming, uh, record breaking poll that people really wanted to understand, like, SEO without backlinks? Is it possible? What do we mean by this? And how does one approach that? I think it’s a great topic that we can be able to Dive into today.
Kate Toon: Yeah. And it’s just for those listening. This is a great tactic. This is what I do before all my podcasts before any post I’m going to do is ask my audience what they want me to write about, then pick the topic that they’ve chosen. And then you can go back to that poll and say, I did it. Look, here it is. And you have a ready-made audience and we all know with podcasts, with social media, what happens in those first couple of minutes of you publishing that content, you know, the reaction that you get is often what leads to it kind of really going off, you know, not necessarily, going viral because that’s a load of nonsense, but going off, getting those interested eyeballs on it really quickly because they asked for that content. So it’s a great strategy. Love it, Nik. But another great strategy is not doing backlinks, but let’s start with the absolute basics. For those who are, who do not understand the world of SEO, what is a backlink?
Nik Ranger: A backlink is essentially an external link from another site or source that points to your site, um, to your page. That’s essentially what a backlink is. Um, And I think, like, maybe just to extrapolate this further, like, what do I mean when I say, like, SEO without backlinks? I just wanted to clarify, for years, backlinks have been seen as the foundation of SEO success.
And while I think they remain a significant ranking signal in Google’s algorithm, they’re no longer the only way to be able to build authority and visibility in search results. So what I’m trying to talk about today is that We need to take a little bit more of a holistic approach, one that prioritizes on page signals just as much, if not more than backlinks.
Kate Toon: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s a really interesting topic because Google for a long time has said we don’t look at backlinks and then all their documentation was released, which kind of proved that they did. And also if you talk to any SEO agency, you know, usually the flow, and you can disagree with me because you work at one of Australia’s best SEO agencies is they’ll first fix your tech issues, they will look at your keyword opportunities, optimize some content. But after that, it’s often an ongoing for a lot of SEO agencies. It’s like, we will build you 10 links a month. You know, we might not tell you what those links are, but we will be building them. Some of them will be shit and some of them will be good.
And it’s just backlinks, backlinks, backlinks. You know, that’s, they’re obsessed with it. So I love this more holistic approach. I think this is really what’s coming out in 2025 that, you know, is about building brands and reputation, and using multiple platforms and all of that influencing your SEO.
But let’s, let’s talk about the sum here, the nut of it, the nub of it. If I’m not doing backlinks, what am I doing?
Nik Ranger: Well, I love that you brought up a lot of what Google said and all the documents that are out there. Um, so, um, Dan Petrovich who I work with, um, who is an incredible SEO, um, was one of the, well, he was the person who actually found the API leak back in May of 2024. Um, and one of the things that we learned from, um, this code was that the algorithm mechanisms that really highlight how the search engine evaluates page quality, authority, and user experience, like these compressed quality signals show that Google isn’t just looking at how many backlinks a page has.
But actively assessing content relevance, site, um, site usability and really potential spam indicators. And we’ve seen this from algorithm updates, like, um, all these things that are happening. Um, this is actually what some of the mechanisms. So that means like a well optimized site, one with strong technical foundations, fast load times, clear structure, engaging content can perform well without really relying heavily on backlink building.
So backlinks, they still matter, but their role has evolved. Google actively filters out redundant or low quality anchor text links. And this is something we’ve been able to verify.
Meaning excessive linking from the same source or low quality sites won’t have, won’t really move the needle. Instead, link quality and context plays a much, much bigger role. So that reinforces the idea that SEO success isn’t just about acquiring links. It’s about ensuring every aspect of a site aligns with Google’s evolving quality standards.
In practice, that means focusing on content clarity queries, the relevance to the particular search intent, the user experience, um, and while letting backlinks serve as a supplementary rather than a primary strategy, SEO without backlinks isn’t about ignoring them. It’s just about ensuring that they’re one piece of a broader, more sustainable optimization approach.
Kate Toon: Yeah. Oh, that was a good monologue. I love that. That was really good. Um, but I get it. So you’re not saying they don’t matter, but I guess what the problem has been maybe in four or five years is that they’ve been everything they’ve been the core focus and sometimes at the cost of things like usability and good content and accessibility and having a well optimized site, it’s like, don’t, just build loads of backlinks and obviously reinforcing the message that Google has always given. People haven’t listened that quality and context and relevance is more important than quantity, you know, one good quality link from a decent site that actually brings good quality traffic as well as just authority is better than 35 dodgy links from some, you know, porn site in Azerbaijan.
So we, you know, the message I think that’s coming through very podcast in 2025 is the SEO is a holistic game. Now it’s, it’s not about ticking boxes. It’s really about the entire. Digital experience, especially with EAT and our digital footprint and all of that, but some people are going to be sitting there, you know, your plumbers in Sydney, your locksmiths in Melbourne saying love that, love what you’re saying, Nik, but my competitor is investing heavily in backlinks.
How can I win if they’re doing that? And I’m not.
Nik Ranger: Well, it’s really interesting that you bring up plumbers and electricians. I mean, they’re one of the most spam-laden industries. And there’s even like explicit documentation with Google Business Profile, which is formerly Google Business, Google My Business, like more local signals, that actually look at that specific niche a lot more closely and scrutinize it. So if you’ve ever gotten a. Penalty or being suspended. It’s kind of also because you dress maybe in an industry that just has a lot more scrutiny with algorithmically and also with manual quality evaluators looking at that.
But great question because like how we handle competitive niches really does. play, a bit of a broader view. So competing in highly competitive niches where backlinks may play a major role can be really, really challenging. I’m not saying that it’s not hard. But I think while backlinks remain an important priority, sometimes, they’re just not the only parts of success. I think the key here is to maximize every other possible advantage like leveraging content quality, the user experience, and having that as a strategic outreach, strategic approach to really be able to stand out. A lot of what we learned again, and I’m going to be bringing up the Algorithm leak documents a lot because they’re very, very fascinating in the way that they articulate more about content quality.
The compressed quality signals document really reinforces the importance of high quality content. So there’s something called an NSR score. So Normalized Site Reliability score. So that really means that content must go beyond just being informative. It needs to be valuable. It needs to be authoritative and structured for search visibility.
There’s another, um, signal in there. Google’s Mustang and snippet ranking systems, and those highlight through quick keyword research and strategic integration of search terms into titles. Headings and content, those can really, really significantly help, um, rankings as well. And I think while backlinks are seen as the gateway to authority, content quality really drives link acquisition naturally. If you’ve ever heard someone say, create content, that like, link magnets or, you know, creating linkable assets. Really what we mean by that is we’re creating industry leading content. Other sites that are more likely to reference it and link to it naturally, because you wanna be able to say, like with every single URL that I’m putting onto my site, every single URL I’m, I’m happy to have in my site map.
I wanna make sure that that content is exceptional. It stands out. And you know what? Like, Kate is a great example of this for every page that she has. Um, there’s a video, there’s an audio source, there’s a transcript, there’s wonderful images that are real and human-taken. You know? So, like, there’s a lot of hard work that goes into it, but you can really be rest assured that when you click through to, um, her content, there has been real hard work that’s, that’s gone behind it.
Real authority of the people she reaches out to, to be able to talk about, um, topics. And there’s a lot more collaborative, uh, work there. So that sort of work is really, really hard to replicate without doing all that hard work. So that can really be reinforced through guest posting on reputable sites, collaborating with influencers, using PR outreach to get featured on high authority platforms. That’s really what that means. Like doing the hard work is the thing that’s going to pay in dividends in the long run, and I can talk a lot more about, um, all the different signals and things like that. But you know what? I think that is really the crux of what I’m trying to say here.
Kate Toon: Yeah, no, I get that. So, you know, just to reflect on some of the points that you made there, you know, in real life, even now, so I’m doing a bit of copywriting again. Just for fun. And, even yesterday, you know, a site came to me and said, Oh, we want to have five, 600 word articles about boring subject X. And, you know, you really have to push back and challenge them and say, look, Google knows enough about those topics that it’s just going to generate a Google AI over you and it’s not going to come from your content. You know, you really need to put together some really authoritative piece with some new opinion and maybe a standpoint and some facts and some stats and some quotes from reputable sources. And it needs to be multimedia with images and video and whatever.
And yes. That’s going to take longer, but it’s going to be a piece of content you’re proud of. This idea still that we need to churn out content to feed the Google beast still, it just won’t die. And yes, it does take a lot longer to produce that, but yeah, even big corporations are still in that mindset that, you know, Google wants regular 300 word posts and they’re just breaking that vibe is really incredible, incredibly hard. You’ve talked about a lot of ideas that, you know, you quickly flick through things like guest posts and podcasting. And really, I think this goes back, as you know, I’ve been doing, um, SEO since I was a child, it feels that I feel like a hundred years old and back in the day, it was Matt cuts.
And Matt Cutts famous quote was, you should never build links. You should earn them. Um, and I think that that’s a really important content strategy to think about who is your content for, because not every piece of content is for your customers. Sometimes you can actually produce peer content. And I would say something, this is something Dejan is known for and Dan, he’s respected by his peers as well as his customers, so some of the content he’s putting out there would go right over the head of his customers. They’re just not interested. It doesn’t, they’re just like, get me some traffic. I don’t care what you’re doing behind the scenes. I don’t care about Google’s leaked doodah. So he’s writing content that gets peer recognition and peer shares.
And I think sometimes people forget that that is an opportunity because that’s going to earn him heaps of links. People are going to quote him and share that information on, Rand Fishkin does it as well. Very well, you know, gathering content online. Cyrus Shepherd does big audits of things. Ahrefs does big audits of thousands of sites, then publishes the results.
And that kind of content really cuts through, doesn’t it? So with that in mind, how can a small business, a local accountant, a local bookshop, do that sort of thing? Create that content that’s so good that it gets shares from people without them even having to try. That gets links without them having to build them.
Nik Ranger: Well, I think one of the things that you brought up around even for your own business, having a consideration of, you know, someone comes to you with, you know, like 500 word article ideas and you’re just sort of like sifting through these titles and just, you’re not inspired, you’re not invigorated to do all the hard work that really makes, you know, ranking for that particular query important, I think that’s a really important place and mentality to really think from, um, because what we’re trying to say is, like, create things that are unique and interesting, but have a look at your own Google Analytics 4 and have a look at your own like dwell time, how long are people spending reading through articles, is it informative, is it giving them something that, Is unique and interesting.
If you really want to look at it for like, well, I don’t know, like, you know, looking at a query, look at what Google is already surfacing is the best results and have a sense and I mean, I mean, this literally, like, go in, read these articles and have a sense of what they’re trying to say, what they’re putting forward, um, have a look at the images that they’re sending.
Um, there might even be videos in the carousel that Search Google is also presenting that all those different signals give you a sense of a benchmark of what the expectation looks like to be actually to rank for that particular query. So, with your own content, it might just be that an article just doesn’t do enough.
It might be that you do a lot of research into this and you’re writing your from your own experience, maybe that isn’t sometimes enough. Maybe it is really important to reach out to get that additional expert opinion on this, um, and be able to link them as well, because all those signals do play an additional factor.
I think, I want to maybe talk a little bit about this in terms of freshness as well. Let’s do a hypothetical scenario. So like tech gizmo reviews, like as a concept of a site, right? A site that publishes reviews and comparisons on latest consumer tech products and, and things like that, if they’re really wanting to rank for the best smartphones of 2025, already, that’s a very, very popular and very interesting dense competitive niche to be able to rank for. Um, one thing that we we’ve noticed from different signals in the way that Google looks at freshness is it’s starting to favour newer articles from competing sites that have updated their content, uh, to reflect sometimes like start of year releases, midyear releases.
And sometimes we have seen the rankings and volatility around these particular types of queries. do become quite volatile and those things do evolve
Kate Toon: In that situation the query deserves freshness. Not all queries deserve, you know, if you’re reading an article on how to weave a Hessian rug, unless there’s some new innovative way, but if you’re talking about a new release of a product, that is something that Google would identify as the intent is people want the latest content.
Because they don’t want a review from something from 2022. So some queries require more freshness than others right?
Nik Ranger: Absolutely.
Kate Toon: Yeah. Yeah.
Nik Ranger: And I like that interjection because without that caveat, it sort of does bucket one to think about just in, in one different, one certain way. And you’re essentially right.
Like I’m giving this as more of an example-
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Nik Ranger: For a particular niche, but that’s really, really important. Having this perspective of well, what is the most, what is the benchmark for a certain query? What do I need to be able to rank for this? There are so many different considerations and in a sense, freshness could be one signal to pay attention to.
Like I would like have real images to be able to associate this. I would have real content of someone actually going through and testing this and having a variety of different models to test and having a table of information that really helps to be able to visualize this and think about the format in the way that you’re laying this out because a lot of the time when people are reading something, they are trying to look at this and getting a sense with just a glance and with that one glance, you want to kind of win that attention and that’s all I mean by, you know, taking it back to Google Analytics for having a look at the metrics and signals in there, because that actually does play out into a real world scenario of where someone is actually looking at your site and making a glance opinion as to whether they’re going to stay in your page or bounce, click back and choose one of your other competitors. So that is really, really prescient to be able to consider.
Kate Toon: Yeah, those engagement factors are so important and really looking at, you know, the time that people are spending reading your article that you can use.
There’s lots of tools that will tell you how long it takes someone to read a 500 word article or 2000 word article. Um, you know, and The time on your site is a lot less. They’re not reading it. They’re not getting through it. And people, you know, I think it’s Jakob Nielsen that said you, people don’t read articles end to end, they forage like creatures looking for things that connect with them. Sub headers, graphics, quotes, tables, as you said. I mean, again, I’m being a bit retro here, uh, with all my references because I’m old. Uh, but you know, Brian Dean, you know, calling the skyscraper technique of looking at. The search results, putting a query and looking at the top 5 search results, the format of those results.
Are they video? Are they comparison posts? What have they done and how can you build on that as a foundation? So they’ve done a 500 word article with no images, you add images and a video and make it a thousand words. They’ve done a thousand-word article with videos and images. You add some quotes and some statistics and some references.
You have to see what the arena is before you pick your weapons to go into that arena, because otherwise you’re not going to win, you know, so, and I think what people don’t understand is it’s not the burn and churn, like putting together a really good quality piece of content that A stands the test of time, B beats out the competitors, has great engagement signals, earns links, is cannibalizable for millions of social media posts, it takes a lot of time, you know, for the bookshop, we’ve just put together a little PDF of all the banned books, the books that are banned around the world. And it’s, it’s taken us a long time to pull that together, but it’s a really valuable, good quality piece of content that we’ll have for a year, you know, that will be delivering links and traffics for over a year.
So less is more, more is less. Quality over quantity. I mean, we’re kind of saying the things we’ve been saying for a while, but do you think this is a change or do you just think it’s becoming more important? Because as I said, we’ve been saying these things for a long time, but it feels like now it’s more important than ever.
Nik Ranger: I would say it’s more important than ever because at the moment we are really vying for attention. And a lot of folks are coming to us, not really having a good sense of what is actually happening on their site, how to be able to prioritize different pages on their site, and I think a lot of the traditional thinking just doesn’t quite work anymore, where it’s just solely being relied on external factors to really bolster the artificialness of engagement.
And that’s really what an external signal is trying to sort of say, it is like getting votes without really having any campaign work or any policies behind that.
Kate Toon: Oh, I love that. There’s the analogy of the episode, getting camp- getting votes without actually having any policies. I love that.
Nik Ranger: Oh, absolutely. And you know, some like, this is something that I think like for. For an algorithm, they’re wanting to be able to have a lot more nuance being taken in to their ranking systems. So that’s why I’m, you know, I’m talking about like the Google Neural Search Ranker NSR scores. I’m talking about Mustang. I’m talking about snippet ranking systems.
I’m talking about a lot of like, you know, different signals that we’ve learned from leaked documents that we know in the way that it’s assessing this particular type of content. I’m talking about it in a very measured way. The system is unbelievably complex, but I am cherry picking from a couple of different things.
But I think the core of the message here really goes back into like, trying to make sure that this is exceptionally helpful. One metric I would always go back to, the tried, the true, the tested is click through it because click through rate is, a wonderful mix between, um, having a sense of engagement and relevance.
And that’s so important with all these signals with all the things you can potentially look at. If you’re really wanting to prioritize what page you start with, have a look at your click through rate of all your pages. We do things with click through rate modelling, and we use that to analyze what is winning and what is losing clicks and with everything I’ve said today, I’m really just reverse engineering it to this click through rate model that is available. It is free for anyone to be able to go through. It’s on you.algaroo.com. I’m just saying this is a free resource that we’ve developed, but it basically will take your Search Console data.
We don’t keep this. This is all, um, all for you. So, you know, it’s on your own separate accounts, um, and you can be able to build these models and be able to see, uh, What is happening at scale based on a period of time? Um, and you can be able to see, like, well, what is my expected click through rate for for me ranking on page 1, sorry, position 1 through to position 10.
And when you’re looking at, like, what is expected across your entire site, maybe you’re branded, or maybe you’re just non branded queries and you’re then looking at page that has a higher click through rate. Well, that’s telling you that that particular page. Is winning for a reason and it’s your job to be able to go through and figure out why is that happening and for a lot of the tactics and a lot of the things that we’ve been talking about today, that mentality where you start from is really important because that might actually indicate to you that like.
Oh, wow. That infographic was exceptionally helpful. Um, all that, um, that page that, uh, we went out and we took photos from the job site, um, and walked through like what it actually meant to repair that broken smash stove top, um, really does look like for an end user, like they can see that these are real photos and they’re not the best quality photos, but that doesn’t matter because that person knows.
That there is a real practitioner on the grounds doing the work knows what they’re talking about. And the before and the after photos really highlight their expertise, their ferventness, their professionalism, and how well they can really get a sense of like, well, I’m going to reach out to, you know, the appliance fixer, the oven fixers of the world and actually use them as, okay, you know, to be able to fix my appliances. So that’s the mentality that I think Kate and I have done a really good job of expressing to you. But when you look at the metrics, think how the data is telling a story.
Kate Toon: And then tell a good story as well. Well, I think we’ve told a good story on today’s podcast.
I hope that’s made sense to everybody. There are some kind of terminologies there that we use. And I think, you know, you as a day-to-day SEO, maybe you don’t need to be digging into the to the data in Google’s documents, but you do need to find good people to trust and good voices to listen to. And I think Nik is definitely one of those.
So I’ll include links to all Nik’s social, she’s very good to follow on LinkedIn as well. We’ll include a link to the Dejan website. Actually, Dan did an episode a very long time ago about click through rates and SERP optimization. Um, you know, which I still think is relevant today. So go and search out that episode in the pod archive as well.
But Nik, thank you so much for joining us today. Essentially I’m going to sum up, links still matter, but they don’t matter as much as they used to. And we need to focus on a more holistic approach to SEO. Did I summarize it okay?
Nik Ranger: A hundred percent, Kate. Thank you so much. It’s an honour to be here and subscribe to Kate.
Kate Toon: Yeah, keep saying it. I didn’t pay her to say that. Brilliant. Lovely to have you on the show and we’ll have you on again very soon.
Nik Ranger: Thanks so much guys. Have a great one.
Kate Toon: So that’s the end of this week’s show. If you have questions about SEO and how to build that authority and create great content without focusing heavily on backlinks, you can always go and join my I love SEO.
I like to end the show with a shout out for one of my lovely listeners. And today it’s Devong8. They say great podcast. Love this podcast. Simple and clear advice for what can be complex in the world of SEO. I’ve already got notes. Well, hopefully you got some good notes from that episode two. Thank you very much, Devon.
I won’t say the usual spiel about leaving a review, you know that I want them, please just give them to me. And also don’t forget to head to the website, the recipe for SEO success, where you can learn more about Nik and Dejan and, also that special tool that she mentioned, Algoroo. All right. Until next time, happy SEOing.
