Encouraging loyalty over quick sales
In my Reality SEO episodes, I like to focus on real humans grappling with the Google beast, and Digital Marketing.
Yes, I get lots of marketing professionals, copywriters, and web developers passing through my slippery funnel of courses and resources, but I also get real business humans.
Today we’re talking to Bec Slack, a former student of the Recipe For SEO Success Course, a member of the Digital Masterchefs, and an online educational toy store co-owner.
We’ll talk about the challenges she faced taking on a pre-existing business, and if learning SEO and Digital Marketing for a toy store is all fun and games.
About Bec Slack
Together, they source eco-friendly toys to bring education, connection and purpose to playtime, for families all around Australia.
Bec is ambidextrous and only writes with her left hand. For everything else Bec switches to her right hand, even if she’s writing on a chalkboard.
No one has ever beaten Bec at timezone basketball (not that Bec is at all competitive).
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And big thanks to Hit N Run from Australia for their lovely review:
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I’m a new listener to your podcast and I’ve binged *a lot* of episodes since finding you. I love the mix of interviews and other content and always take something away to implement in my biz.
Thanks for demystifying what can be a complicated and scary topic for the uninitiated”.
Connect with Bec Slack
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Transcript
Kate Toon:
In my reality SEO episodes, I like to focus on real humans grappling with the Google beast and digital marketing. Yes, I get lots of marketing professionals, copywriters, and web developers passing through my slippery funnel of courses and resources, but I also get real business humans too.
And today we’re talking to, I think she’s a real business human, Bec Slack, a former student of The Recipe for SEO Success course, a member of the Digital Masterchefs, and an online educational toy store co-owner. We’ll talk all about the challenges she faced taking on a preexisting business and if learning SEO and digital marketing for a toy store is all fun and games.
Hello, my name’s Kate Toon and I’m the head chef at The Recipe for SEO Success, an online teaching hub for all things related to search engine optimization and digital marketing. And today I’m talking with Bec Slack. Hello, Bec Slack.
Bec Slack:
Hello, Kate Toon.
Kate Toon: Bec is a self-confessed millennial who is bad at technology. So hopefully we will be able to maintain our techness throughout this podcast. Bec, I’m going to awkwardly read out your bio now. Are you ready?
Bec Slack:
Go for it.
Kate Toon:
Okay. Bec owns and runs Cleverstuff Educational Toys along with her husband, Nate, a business they took over in 2015. Together they source eco-friendly toys to bring education, connection, and purpose to playtime for families around Australia. Bec is ambidextrous and only writes with her left hand. For everything else, Bec switches to her right hand. Even if she’s writing on a chalkboard. It’s a bit weird.
No one has ever beaten Bec at Timezone basketball, not that Bec is at all competitive. I love the little random facts. I love Timezone basketball as well. It’s one of my… I miss Timezone. Can’t go at the moment.
Bec Slack:
If we go, you’ll lose. I’m sorry. It’s happened.
Kate Toon:
No, it’s not happened. That’s now a challenge. Next time we have a DMC meetup, we’re going to do it at Timezone.
Bec Slack:
I’ll do it in heels. Watch me go.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. That’s really interesting. Although we’ve been in DMC for a while and you did Recipe quite a while ago now. I don’t think I knew that that wasn’t your business to begin with. I don’t think I knew that you’d taken that over. So how did that work?
Bec Slack:
My husband and I were actually looking at starting a different business. It was our son’s first birthday that was coming up and there’s nothing for one-year-olds or babies in terms of entertainment. I didn’t want a clown. I think they’re creepy.
Kate Toon:
They are so creepy, super creepy.
Bec Slack:
And jumping castles and things for one-year-olds didn’t really suit. So we were planning like a set up a hire business. We were going through all the motions and getting insurance and all that kind of stuff. And our insurance broker actually mentioned that he knew of a toy store that was for sale.
Similar industry, and at least then we’d have a database and all that stuff. And we had a look at it with a one-year-old at home and I am a self-confessed nerd, so the fact it was all wooden and all educational, it sold me day one, and we just jumped in and figured it out on the way down.
Kate Toon:
I don’t know, because for me it’s a bit like adopting a puppy that’s already got a name. I always think if you get a puppy from a shelter, are you allowed to change its name?
Bec Slack:
That was honestly the hardest part of purchasing the business. We had a one-month handover, I cut it down to two weeks because I was so tired of hearing, “But that’s not how we do this.” And so it was quite difficult at first. I feel like now we’re almost seven years in. So now we have gotten to the point where, if it was a foster child, I would’ve adopted it by now.
So we’ve taken it on board, it’s now mine. I feel like we’ve been around long enough. We’ve actually owned it longer than they had owned it. But that was a massive hurdle trying to come to terms with, this is what they did, this is what we want to do. How do we get from A to B?
Kate Toon:
Yeah. I love that. We’re going to talk a bit more about that today because I think that’s a really interesting transition. Most people find it hard enough to rebrand their own business, but to take on someone… It’s like, as you said, I love a good analogy. It’s like walking around in someone else’s shoes. It feels weird and icky for a little bit. Som no disrespect to the previous owners, but you took on a business, you took on a email list, you took on a website, you took on preexisting rankings, and all of that, what digital marketing challenges did you face right off the bat?
Bec Slack:
They were much more old school. They were fax-us-your-order, I’m a tech unfriendly millennial that does not know what a fax machine is. I’d actually worked in an online store previous. And so I had already used a of different online platforms. I’d use different inventory management. I’d used all these different programmes. So I had a bit of an understanding with it.
And I came in from day one and said, like exactly like what you said, “Absolutely no disrespect. I can see where I want this to be and what’s happening now isn’t going to get us there.” So we moved over to Shopify, we installed inventory management, we started making payments up front and we moved from a B to B. So they were selling predominantly to childcare centres. And we went into parents and grandparents and loved ones.
I think for us, it was a logical shift because I am a parent. I’m not an educator by trade. So I couldn’t talk about those early year learning framework values that they really needed, but I can tell a mom, my kid loves this. So it was more about coming from my truth, which I think is the most important thing. I could never take on a shoe store because I don’t enjoy shoes. I love learning. So it was quite easy.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. That’s really, really important to, I was going to use the word pivot, but we’re not allowed to use that word anymore, but to make it your own and to change, obviously there was a preexisting audience there, but it would’ve felt insincere or not quite right for you to try and market to them. I mean maybe now. I think probably now seven years on, I know that you do do wholesale, you do do other things, you’ve kind of come back again to that, but with the confidence built on marketing B to C, is that right?
Bec Slack:
Exactly. A hundred percent so, and also I think as well, I am my audience. And so it was very natural for me to move into social media. Social media is massive for us. It wasn’t for them when we took on the business. I think they had about 3000 Facebook followers and we’ve grown that to over 50,000.
Kate Toon:
Wow. That’s great.
Bec Slack:
Yeah. So it was more about coming into “where is our audience” and “I am that audience”. What would I like to see? What would I like to hear? So just making sure that everything we say and do. The core value of our business is that if we aren’t proud of it, we will not stock it.
Kate Toon:
Yeah.
Bec Slack:
It’s just about bringing it back. I didn’t want to do mattresses for daycare centres or highchairs. We wanted it to be all educational.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And I think as well, one of the things we talk a lot about in DMC is, my favourite line, I think I made it up, is give me a reason not to buy it from Kmart. And one of the reasons you’re able to do this so well is it’s really you and it’s your partner and you have children. And then you share a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff on Instagram. You get involved with the story of your brand and your family, not that you share every intimate detail of your family life, but I can see the people who this business is impacting. Do you think your story and your family has been an important part of your marketing?
Bec Slack:
One hundred percent. We’re quite relatable. We’re parents who give our kids chicken nuggets and we have Maccas and I don’t subscribe to these perfect Instagram lifestyle. My kids barely have a playroom. This is what we’ve always gone back to, you don’t need everything. You don’t need the gimmicky brand name, next best thing as adults, we know we don’t need it. So why are we trying to encourage our children to want something? They just want to have fun. They just want to play.
And so it’s a very natural message for me to say, “Pick the things that you know will work for you and your child, and then think about different ways to play rather than having everything you could possibly have.” And I think there’s a lot of pressure, especially for moms seeing this perfect Instagram world. It’s the same as business owners hearing about zero to seven figures in three hours and all these different messaging that we are getting online, keep it real. And that’s one of our biggest things. We’re very upfront. If we make a mistake, I’m so sorry. We messed up. Let’s see what we can do to work it. And that’s the way I’m as a parent, business owner. It’s just us.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. Makes branding so much easier if your brand values are actually your own values. Well, let’s talk a little bit about SEO. So obviously you did the course, I think, a couple of years ago now. What challenges you were having back then in terms of Google ranking? Obviously with a store, with lots of different products, what challenges were you facing?
Bec Slack:
For me, SEO always felt like a language I didn’t know how to speak. And I read all the things and I heard all these things and there was no actionable step-by-step, “Do A, B, C, you’ll get X, Y, Z”. And that was the biggest thing for me. Like I said, I’m one of those people. I’m happy to do it. I want to put in the work, but I want to make sure the work I’m doing is worth it.
And so my biggest issue before I started the Recipe course was I didn’t speak the language. I didn’t understand. And I was doing all the things that I thought I should be doing, but I wasn’t measuring it, I wasn’t tracking it… I didn’t know how to measure or track it. So how do you know if it’s working, if you can’t check if it’s working?
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And I think as well, a lot of people come onto the course and into the groups and they’re doing all the things, but they’re not necessarily the things that are going to make any difference. So investing a lot of time and effort into things, which they believe should influence ranking and conversion, but in reality, don’t have a huge influence. And I think that’s one of the biggest challenges. There’s so much misinformation about what is important.
One of the questions I get asked an awful lot is, “Does an ecommerce store need a blog?” It’s a huge question because obviously the basic premise is that blogs help SEO. And it’s such a sweeping statement and not necessarily true. People say it’s great to have regular content on your site. It’s great to have new content for Google to crawl. But if you’re an ecommerce store, you already have that because you have new inventory and new products coming out all the time.
So if you’re creating a blog because you think it’s going to make Google crawl your site more, it’s probably not, but still having a blog is great for thought leadership, for storytelling, for case studies, for comparing products, for talking about how your products are made. So there’s a – do you have a blog? Do you use that channel or do you more use stories in Instagram for sharing your behind the scenes?
Bec Slack:
We do have a blog and we have done… Like I’ve heard you say, every page is a ticket into the SEO lottery. And so we went for the more that long tail. Our blog is not aimed at conversions. Our blog is to, as you said, become a thought leader. We want to be able to share our knowledge. Why are magnetic toys great for kids? Why should you be playing with puzzles?
That’s not going to lead to a sale potentially. However, well, we would like to give out information. We’ve got some knowledge and we’d like to share it. That’s why we do a blog, but I do. I do think it’s a massive one of those cornerstones into a business to be able to share your knowledge. You can’t share your knowledge on a product page particularly well.
Kate Toon:
Yeah.
Bec Slack:
So I do think it’s a very important part, but at the same time, not at the expense of selling.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. And one of the things I think, I’ve watched over the years, that your product descriptions have become better and better and better. To begin with, there was, let’s be honest, a little bit of cutting and pasting from the original. No, she’s shaking head.
Bec Slack:
Not me, never.
Kate Toon:
Not you, never. And obviously now, especially for your top products, you’re writing really meaty, emotive thought provoking, detailed product descriptions that really play into your audience’s insights. So you’re all about, real play and stimulating the mind. So you actually emphasise that in your product descriptions, rather than just saying, “It’s a this, it weighs this much, it’s made of wood.”
How do you approach that though? Because you have an awful lot of products in your store, so you can’t optimise every single one. Not even the big stores do that. Usually what we always say it, don’t we, I say this probably every time we have a call, 20% of the products make 80% of the money. So how do you approach your optimization for your products?
Bec Slack:
I don’t do it when I’m tired. I schedule in time to make sure I’m writing good product descriptions. You can’t do it at 11:00 PM at night and think it’s going to be interesting. I would rather wait a few days and do it right, than just be like, “Oh, I’ve got this product I need to get out.”
We are very lucky. We’re not just saying, “it’s a drinking glass. It is fun.” Everything we sell is fun. And so I am lucky. I do play with it. I get my kids to play with it. And we do talk about the experience. I want someone to read the words on the page and feel like they’ve played with it themselves. So yes, the dimensions and all that are important, but it’s the feeling that it evokes and all those words are SEO friendly, thankfully.
Kate Toon:
Thankfully. And we had Keneena on the podcast the other week, she’s a member of DMC, she has a shop called Kablooie. And we were talking a lot, one of the other big questions that comes up for eCommerce store owners is the decision about the order of keywords in those long tail keywords. So you have a product, it’s a wooden dinosaur for boys or girls, we’re not going to do the gendered toys anymore, age 3-4, and it stimulates finger play. That sounds weird. It’s spatial awareness.
Bec Slack:
Yes. Fine motor skills.
Kate Toon:
There we go. Finger play, don’t use that. If we Google that, we might get something quite…
Bec Slack:
We’re not that kind of that kind of toy store.
Kate Toon:
Yes. That’s the other side hustle that we’ll talk about next episode. So one of the questions people are have is then… But it’s also made by this brand that people recognise, so people say, “Well, should I put the brand first? Should I put the wooden first? Should I put the age range first? Where should I put the spatial awareness part? And where should I put dinosaur? And also, should I mention the colour?” How do you make that decision?
Bec Slack:
We don’t optimise our product pages particularly well for ranking because it is, at the end of the day, a dinosaur puzzle. And you could have a dinosaur puzzle for a 40-year-old or a four-year-old. So we do quite specific categories and collections on our website that we’ll showcase.
So if someone’s looking for a dinosaur puzzle, we will have a collection that will have the meta and all those good things for dinosaur toys without going too niche. I do include them all in the first hundred words, if possible. However, sometimes I don’t want to feel forced. Our whole brand, everything about the way we do it is we try and make it just seem like you’re chatting with a mate.
Kate Toon:
Yeah. [crosstalk 00:15:35] Not that you should shoehorn keywords in, but the most important thing is to remember never sacrifice the customer experience to try and please the Google gods. But you mentioned something very important there one thing, again, that you do very well is your collections and making sure that the collections pages have content on them, that they’re well thought out, that they have emotive language on them as well. Most people just ignore the collection pages. It’s just the collection of images and they don’t work on those, but they can be super powerful because they’re higher up in your site architecture. So I’m glad to hear that you’re doing that Beck.
Bec Slack:
We realised when we started doing the Recipe course, that our puzzles collection ranked really well. And I thought, as you said, a couple of tweaks on the things that are already doing all right can push it up a lot faster than trying to get from page 99 to page one. And it only took a couple of weeks and we were above Kmart for toddler puzzles.
Kate Toon:
That was one of the best moments. When you shared that in the group, it was like, wow. I think that is super encouraging because so many people have come to the course as well and say, “How can we win against Bezos, against Kmart, against Target?” And the thing is, these big brands have a lot of ground covered, but they can’t cover every term. And also people will actively choose not to buy from Bezos and from Kmart and whatever, they want to buy from… Just like we like to buy local, we also like to buy small, not that I’m saying your business is small, but you know what I mean?
Bec Slack:
There’s two of us, we are small.
Kate Toon:
Yeah, we are small. And we want to buy from people where we feel like it’s going to make an impact. And we want to buy from brands who we feel have good values and values that match our own. So I love that. We’ve talked a little bit about SEO. We’ve talked about the repositioning of your brand and the repositioning of your audience, other tactics that you use to build your brand. We talked about SEO, but obviously you’re quite active on social media and you also do email marketing. What other tactics are working really well for you at the moment?
Bec Slack:
Paid marketing has always worked really well, but one big thing that actually, just to touch on SEO again, when I first did the course, we were attaining about 90% of customers from paid marketing, which isn’t ideal. And then after doing the course, implementing SEO, becoming more organically active on social media, more normal everyday posts, like you said, stories and things. We’ve actually cut that down. We’re now spending only about 40%-50% through pay per click, but pay per click is our big area. [inaudible] is massive as well.
Kate Toon:
I think that’s so important to say that… Obviously, I bang on about SEO, that’s what I do. And for a long time, probably for the first 11 years of my business, I didn’t know paid marketing at all. Now, as I’m moving, getting bigger and bigger and needing more and more people in, I am having to do paid marketing. And the two things aren’t mutually exclusive, but they do have to compliment each other.
And obviously the you’re going to be spending money either way. So you’re spending money on paid ads or you’re spending money on developing content or you’re spending time. Yes, it doesn’t take five minutes to pick up your iPhone and take a video of Nate stuck under some boxes in the warehouse, but it does take a few minutes to put that together and that’s money. So it’s a holistic view. What role is email playing? Because one thing I think you do very well is you are great at attracting the first time customer, but a lot of eCommerce stores really miss a trick when it comes to building that loyalty. So what are some of the loyalty tactics you employ with Cleverstuff?
Bec Slack:
One of the things that I’ve noticed has made the biggest difference is updating on our shipping. We’ve installed a program that once it gets picked up, you get an email, “Woo hoo, the toys have left. They’re on their way to you.” Then the next one is, “Your toys are in transit.” That means they’ve actually moved on their way to you, they’re almost on their way, it’s coming, whatever. Then the last one is, “Oh my goodness, your toys are on board. It’s like Christmas Eve”. We know those butterflies and we keep them updated every step of the way. So I don’t know about you, but for me, if I shop online, sometimes it’s 11:00 AM after a couple of glasses of wine, and I forget. So if I’ve got that follow up…
Kate Toon:
No, I don’t know what you mean. What are you talking about?
Bec Slack:
So if you can keep that excitement going that whole journey, then when they get it, worst case scenario, something’s wrong. They know they’ve got a point of call cause we sent a, “It’s now been delivered. If there’s any problems, you tell us now. We’re here, we’re ready to go.” That’s just that communication.
Kate Toon:
I love that. My son recommended an app, Shop. Because one of the things I find is, yes, there’s the 11 o’clock wine factor, but also, most brands rely on updates from couriers and Australia post. So you’re getting these random messages from Australia posts. Often the brand’s name that you bought from is slightly different to the one that they’ve registered with Australia, so I got one today that said, “Your order from Go Go something or other,” that sounds weird, not a weird site, I’m not a go-go dancer, “ is on its way.” And I’m like, “What?”
Bec Slack:
Finger play site
Kate Toon:
Finger play site. Hashtag finger play. What even was that? I have no idea what that was. I can’t track it back. And so I love that you are not just relying on the courier messages to get that through and that you’re building that excitement and that you’re also giving customers two or three points to go, “Oh, problem.” And resolve it before it hits their letter box.
Bec Slack:
I think as well with that we love our community and we love them hard. And we don’t do sales, we’re not a sales business, but if you’re a part of our community, you get early access. If you’re part of our community, you get special offers on a random Friday. You get a free toy in your parcel if you use a particular code.
So we do do exclusive offers to encourage that subscription, to encourage that loyalty, to encourage that open rate. I do think ecomm is up against some pretty tough open rate issues because I get emails at 06:00 AM from the same place every single day. I know one day I’m going to want it. So I’m not unsubscribing.
Kate Toon:
Oh Yeah.
Bec Slack:
– to come in. So it is one of those things. It can be annoying. People don’t love emails. It’s the same as pop-ups on websites. It’s the same as lots of things.
Kate Toon:
Yeah unfortunately they work, I call those emails, they’re not spam, but I call them bacon. As like you said, one day I will want to buy something and I will forget your brand because there’s so many brands. There’s so much noise. So I will not unsubscribe from my email. I will immediately delete it because I’m not in the market for it today.
But I also love what you said there about sales. There’s something we talk about in the membership, the Digital Masterchefs membership. Because we do talk a lot about CRO, we talk about loyalty, and we talk about sales and discounts. And I think often especially young ecommerce stores can think that discounts and sales are the only way to encourage purchase. And I like that you said you don’t do sales.
For example, I don’t ever do sales and I don’t ever do discounts because we’ve all been in that position where I just bought the thing and then the next day it’s 50% off and it just doesn’t feel great. So I love that you’ve actually… It’s almost like positive and negative affirmation with children. Instead of giving people massive discounts, you give them incentives.
Bec Slack:
Yeah.
Kate Toon:
I think that’s a different approach and you make them feel part of something. And also I know as well that you also, in your groups, in your emails, you ask about opinions and what people want to buy and it makes you feel like you’re actually part of the store, doesn’t it?
Bec Slack:
Yeah. And we’ve got customers that come back and I’m like, “Enid, how was Haley’s birthday?”
Kate Toon:
Yeah.
Bec Slack:
I am very lucky. I’ve got a fantastic memory for people’s names and things like that. And so that has been a massive win for me. I can have someone call and say, “My order still hasn’t arrived.” And I’m like, “Sharon, I’m on it. We’ve got this. I know exactly what you’re talking about.” Rather than being a faceless team member who goes, “Okay, we’ll be in touch.” It is the fact that you get to talk to me or Nate, it’s us. And we care. We have to care. Which, I think, takes it to a different level.
Kate Toon:
I think it does. And I mean, I’m the same. I always say I could actually reel off the names of everybody in my membership at night, and there’s over 700 people. And like you said, you know one thing about them, like, “How’s the cat.” And that’s useful, but if you don’t have that skill, it’s not too hard even in the most basic form to set up a little Excel spreadsheet and just try and remember one or two things about that customer or have some kind of CRM where you take time after each customer contact to make a few notes.
Sharon’s order was late this time, the courier didn’t get there. So next time when you see Sharon ordered, you go, “Right, let’s be really snickety boo on Sharon’s order this time.” It’s little things like that, that I often think have a much bigger impact than some super sexy Instagram campaign or the most perfectly written product description. We’re all missing the days when we could go into a shop and someone remembered our name and what we want to order. We miss that. And if you can recreate that in any way online, you’re winning, I think.
Bec Slack:
I completely agree. And I think it does come back to, we are very lucky, our audience, they’re beautiful. We’re not the, we’re not a discount brand, we’re not a sales brand, we’re not trying to beat other people to the race to the bottom. There’s people that sell some of our products much cheaper than we do, but it’s not at that same level, it’s not the same service. They are waiting for the order to come in and then they’ll buy the product to then ship it out. So you’re waiting three or four weeks at the expense of having a good customer experience right now.
Kate Toon:
Well, I think what I would say, and I’ve learned this over many years is your audience is actually a reflection of your brand. So you say your audience is lovely, that hasn’t happened by accident. Your audience is a reflection of your brands. Now, we could do a whole nother episode of when the audience goes bad, but we might save that for another time. Because obviously another thing we talk about a lot in the group is how we handle bad reviews, negativity, and all that stuff. But generally, you’re not going to ever be able to deal with that one percent who just is determined to be unhappy.
Bec Slack:
People don’t like me in person, people don’t like me on the Internet. It’s just the way it’s going to happen. I’m not everyone’s cup of tea and that’s fine.
Kate Toon:
We can’t be everyone’s cup of tea or cup of chai, but you’re definitely my cup of tea. And it’s been absolutely fantastic to talk to you today. Some really great practical insights for people, I think, who are running an eCommerce store. So just remind us again, the name, and the URL of your store.
Bec Slack:
The Cleverstuff Educational Toys, and our website is www.cleverstuff.com.au.
Kate Toon:
Fantastic. And I will include links to your store, to your Instagram and all the various other bits in the show notes for this episode. So Bec, thank you so much for sharing with us today.
Bec Slack:
Anytime. Thanks, Kate.
Kate Toon:
So that’s the end of this week’s show. If you have questions about the world of SEO and eCommerce SEO, head to my ‘I Love SEO’ group on Facebook. I like to end the show with a shout out to one of my lovely listeners. And today it’s Hit N Run from Australia who said, “Seriously addictive. I’m a new you listener to your podcast and I’ve binged a lot of episodes since finding you. I love the mix of interviews and other content, and always take something away to implement in my biz. Thanks for demystifying what can be a complicated and scary topic for the uninitiated.”
So thank you for that. And also thank you to Bec Slack from Cleverstuff. And thanks to you for listening. If you like the show, don’t forget to leave a five-star rating and review on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you heard the podcast. Your review will help others find the show and learn more about the lovely world of digital marketing and SEO. And I’ll give you a shout out too.
Now, don’t forget to go and check out the show notes for this episode where you’ll find a full transcript. If you’ve had difficulty understanding our crazy accents and you’ll also find links to various bits and bobs as well. So thanks for listening. And until next time, happy SEOing.
