How Learning Language Models are affecting search
Ah AI, it’s all everyone’s talking about and utterly fascinating, yet also boring as bat poo at the same time.
While some are using AI to create new tools and innovate, my partner, the WordPress guy, is doing amazing things, most of us are using it to make AI versions of themselves as dogs or creating rubbish lists of two-word keywords in ChatGPT.
So how will AI affect SEO, and what do we really need to know to make the best use of it in our small businesses? Today I’m talking to an AI guru who will shed some light on this hot topic.
Tune in to learn:
- What types of AI are relevant to SEO
- How AI overviews work
- Whether you should optimise your site for ChatGPT
- Why AI and LLMs are not the end of SEO
- Common mistakes business owners make when using Claude or ChatGPT to generate content for their sites
- What type of content is still relevant to add to your site
- How to use AI in your business in a positive way
- Matthew’s thoughts on a ‘zero click’ future, and why it isn’t as dire as it seems
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About Matthew Forzan
Matthew Forzan is the Founder and Managing Director of Yoghurt Digital, a performance-led digital agency based in Sydney. With nearly two decades of experience in SEO, UX, and data-driven strategy, he’s worked with leading brands including R.M. Williams, Adairs, and ANZ. Matthew regularly speaks at universities on the future of search and digital strategy, and recently shared his perspective on AI’s impact on SEO in his talk, “Hey Google, What Happened to SEO?” unpacking the impact of AI on how we search.
Fun fact: Matthew is like a human Shazaam with an uncanny ability to name songs and artists within seconds. He also built a Chrome extension called Post Pasteuriser to blur cringey LinkedIn posts.
Transcript
Kate Toon: Ah AI, it’s all everyone’s talking about and utterly fascinating, yet also boring as bat poo at the same time. While some are using AI to create new tools and innovate, my partner, the WordPress guy, is doing amazing things, most of us are using it to make AI versions of themselves as dogs or creating rubbish lists of two-word keywords in ChapGPT.
So how will AI affect SEO, and what do we really need to know to make the best use of it in our small businesses? Today I’m talking to an AI guru who will shed some light on this hot topic.
Hello, my name is Kate Toon and I’m the head chef at the recipe for SEO Success and Online Teaching Hub for all things related to search engine optimization and digital marketing. And today I’m talking to Matthew Forzan. Hello, Matthew.
Matthew Forzan: Hey Kate. How’re you doing?
Kate Toon: Good. Good to see you. Let me read out your bio so everyone knows who you are.
So Matthew Forzan is the founder and managing director of Yoghurt Digital, a performance led digital agency based in lovely Sydney. With nearly two decades of experience in SEO UX and data-driven strategy, he’s worked with leading brands, including R.M. Williams, Adairs and ANZ. Matthew regularly speaks at universities on the future of search and digital strategy, and recently shared his perspective on AI’s impact on SEO in his talk, “Hey, Google, what’s happened to SEO?” unpacking the impact of AI on how we search. And I actually saw a post that Matthew wrote about this on LinkedIn. So all of you who hate LinkedIn, gotta get on it. You see some good stuff now and again. Fun fact about Matthew, Matthew is a human Shazam with an uncanny ability to name songs and artists within seconds.
He also built a Chrome extension called Post Pasteurizer to blur cringy LinkedIn Post. I love it. Do you follow that account on, I follow it on, what’s it called? Threads. It’s cringey LinkedIn posts. It’s so good.
Matthew Forzan: Yep. There’s one on Reddit that I follow as well, which is just incredible. Yeah.
Kate Toon: I love it. You know the, I was living in a bin and then I did this. One of the best is like, I was playing with my son in the garden and he said, daddy, how will impact AI impact SEO? And this is what I said to him.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: They’re so bad. Awesome. Well, look, AI is all everyone’s talking about to the point where I am bored. As many of us are. And as I said, most of us are using it for making pictures of ourselves, hot pictures of ourselves or doing weird stuff. And I have an interesting reaction whenever I post anything generated with ai, half the people go, wow, that’s so cool. And the other half come in and say you are killing creativity or stealing from artists and your ruining the planet.
Do you, do you have that impact or are all your followers big AI fans?
Matthew Forzan: I think the challenge that I have is in the industry that I’m in, you’ve got that split. You mentioning with the cringe, and so you have a lot of people not writing anything authentic and just copy pasting what comes out of ai. So that’s what I’m seeing a lot.
Kate Toon: Yeah, the cringe, it’s, it’s given more cringe to LinkedIn posts and also the blooming automated comments are just, anyway, before we dive in for anyone fresh to this, let’s really go down to basics, what do we mean when we’re talking AI in relation to SEO? What do we mean by ai?
Matthew Forzan: I like to think of it as two different areas. One is what we can use as a productivity tool to help us do SEO Activity. The other is more about how the search engines are changing the way they’re showing things and ranking things and all of that sort of thing. So those are the two things, I really see as a simplification of ai.
Kate Toon: Yeah, I think that’s really good distinction to draw actually, because especially in terms of productivity, we’ve had tools as SEOs for a long time, that automate and speed up and, you know, SEM Rush has a lot of tools that will, you know, give you keyword gaps and generate content ideas. They’ve been around for ages. And most of us have been using, you know, spell checkers and title generators and tools like that for a long time.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: You know, AI is, in terms of productivity and tools is not new to SEO, but how Google is using AI to change the search results and how it searches is a bit new. So let’s talk about that. Obviously, Google have, introduced AI overviews, not for all search terms, but for a lot. How do AI overviews work? Just talk us through AI overviews and what Google’s thinking is there.
Matthew Forzan: Sure. So historically we had the, the 10 blue links, where you search for something, you get some results, you click through multi tab world, you then open, you do your comparisons, and then you make some sort of action. Fast forward to today, and what we’re looking at is Google effectively trying to do that for you somewhat.
So understanding what your search term is, collecting results, mashing them all together, and then kind of trying to hold your hand through that process. So it’s, it’s really helpful for a lot of users if you’re looking to say, learn how to boil an egg, or you know, wanting to know the best ways to hike through the Blue Mountains.
Those things are really useful, but for a lot of queries, what we’re seeing is nobody’s then clicking on that result, because they get the information they need. And so this is the way of the future. It’s more conversational, of course. But there is an impact to commercial. Right. Websites getting less traffic and that sort of thing.
Kate Toon: Let’s dig into that a little bit, because prior to AI views, we already had featured snippets. So, you know, often you would search for, you know, kind of an informational search or an investigational search and you would get a featured answer, maybe a video. So it was already on the way. But the good thing about the featured answers were often there was great attrib-I can never say it. What was it? Attrib-
Matthew Forzan: Attribution, yeah,
Kate Toon: There we go. I was gonna say attribuation. There was attribution, so, you know, for a while you got both the featured snippet and you had an also an organic result. Then they got rid of that and it was just a featured snippet, but you had a good old click through there, which is great.
I’m seeing a lot less obviously featured answers and features. The snippets coming up, it’s AI overviews and these are generating what the industry is calling zero click searches. So everyone gets everything they need and they don’t click anywhere else, so that’s obviously gonna have a huge impact on businesses, right? Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah. In particular in the informational space. So I’m seeing a lot across our portfolio where things like blog articles are seeing less click-throughs, but commercial queries are higher. And so I guess for anyone that has a blog or a pure information website, they’re kind of going up an uphill battle.
Kate Toon: They really are. And I think we’ve seen a death of, you know, these informational sites that were really just masquerading as affiliate sites.
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: You know, they’ve really gone down the toilet
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: And that kind of whole side of the industry, that whole side hustle has died, you know. And I’ve talked about this with a few other SEO experts and it really is, if you can’t add a new perspective, some new information, or you are writing about something so innovative and different, there really is no point writing another article on how to boil an egg. You know? That’s the example we use. Unless you’ve invented new laser egg boiler. Or you are Professor Egg at the University of Egg with a new perspective.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: Google knows everything it needs to know about boiling an egg. There is no point writing that, you’ll never-
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: Get the click through. And I think that forces business owners to think about, you know, more specialty topics, more niche topics. And again, you know. Everyone’s worrying about AI content, but we’ve had content farms for years. We’ve had cheap freelancers on websites generating shitty content for years. So it’s just now we use robots for that. So if AI overviews have stolen our informational investigational intent keywords, you’re saying that you have, however, seen an improvement in commercial keywords, so keywords that generating buys, yeah. You’ve seen a difference there?
Matthew Forzan: Yeah. I think with the informational, informational context rather, we are, you know, an extreme simple example of boiling the egg. There are more complex queries for the long tail and that sort of thing, which I think to your point, if we’re adding our thought leadership, our lens on things, it’s still very valuable and it can still do well with an informational query with the AI overviews for things like commercial where somebody’s maybe looking to buy a product, we then have, argue a different challenge, which is where we’re starting to see way more paid search results.
And then the likes, obviously ChatGPT having different shopping functions coming soon, and all of that kind of thing as well. So, SEO’s not dead as they say. We just need to zoom out and look a little bit more at the queries we’re trying to target and find the best channel to optimize.
Kate Toon: Yeah, exactly. And we’ve talked prior on the podcast about, you know, one of the big shift is really, which we’ve been doing for a long time, brands like, you know, yours and mine have focused on branding search, branded search, and building up trust in our own brand. So people aren’t even touching informational queries or commercial queries. They’re literally searching first. And obviously you use-
Matthew Forzan: That’s right
Kate Toon: For that. So, you know, we’re talking primarily about Google here and the challenges that come up now with AI overviews. But obviously, you know, they used to say the second biggest search engine in the world was YouTube. And obviously it’s owned by Google, but ChatGPT is on the rise.
So ChatGPT is taking a lot of traffic from Google, you know, and lots of people are worried about how do they optimise for ChatGPT? So what are your thoughts around that?
[00:09:48] Matthew Forzan: Well, this is where that content comes back into play, right? And I think as. People in the space, practitioners, I think generally the industry, we sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot where we say we need to write content.
Then we say, oh, maybe we don’t need to write it anymore. ’cause AI is stealing it. But then if we look at something like ChatGPT, we really need to do our best to inform the structure of our content, what our perspective is, how it relates to A, B, C, and D, and that’s something that needs a bigger focus. You mentioned brand. We know that brand signals are a very strong signal too. LLMs when they’re trying to assess information to share. And so things like pr, brand mentions, citations on other websites. Really important, and those are the types of things we’re working through our clients with, as well as content structure.
So if we go back again, few years, the, the studies were done. The recommendation was long form content is win. because you have all of your information consolidated in one place, you are seen as the resource for that information. We’re now seeing varying levels of what that should look like. A lot of it, having little snackable sections, you know, your TDRs at the bottom of articles, your summary overviews, pages of table of content, that sort of thing. Those are doing really well for LLMS at the moment.
Kate Toon: Yeah. So just to define LLM, large language models, so when you’re talking about that
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: You’re referring to ChatGPT, Claude.
Matthew Forzan: Perplexity, Claude. Yeah, all of those things. Yeah.
Kate Toon: So it’s almost like we are not creating content for Google now, we’re creating content so ChatGPT knows what, who we are as an entity. So we talk in SEO world about EEAT experience, expertise, authority, and trust. You know, showing that we have skin in the game, and I love your points about content because it’s something that I’ve been teaching as a copywriter for a long time to make your content yes, long and detailed, but snackable, digestible, you know, subheaders, breaking it up with bullets, having tables of contents, a good summary, a good intro. But also, you know, that kind of citations and back link piece as well, that your name is mentioned within the context of who you are.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: And what you do. So it all is still SEO. So when people say, I wanna-
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: Optimize for ChatGPT, well, it’s exactly how you would optimize in general.
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: But also how you’d optimise if there were none of these things and you were just trying to be known by humans, you know, you’d wanna speak at events, you’d wanna write authority articles, you’d wanna get mentioned in publications, right? It’s common sense, and sometimes we, especially SEOs, we love to complicate it, don’t we? So it’s challenging. So, you know, obviously we’ve got AI in the context of how these LLMS and search engines are digesting our content and regurgitating it.. Then you also talked about AI in terms of how we generate content.
So what are some of the common mistakes you see business owners making when it comes to using Claude and ChatGPT to generate content for their sites?
Matthew Forzan: Great question. I think historically what would happen is you have a business owner that either tries to write copy themself or they need to hire a freelancer or an agency, something to that effect.
Where I think the mistakes that are happening now is, there’s a lot of business owners thinking they don’t need either of those things anymore, they can just plug into something like a ChatGPT say, I need all blog posts on my plumbing business, whatever it is, and then they just copy paste that. And the bigger problem there is not so much that it’s ai, it’s more that what you said earlier, the search engine already has that information. There’s nothing new. You’re just kind of throwing into a void, as opposed to adding value. And I think that’s where someone like yourself, strategic copywriting can really dictate what we should be writing about, which does give a different perspective, which doesn’t just please the Google Guards, but also adds value to the internet.
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: So I think that’s something I’m seeing people trying to DIY, without having the strategic insight or experience to know whether the output is actually quality.
Kate Toon: Yes, it’s being a busy fool, isn’t it? And I think it’s been a long time since that kind of content pleased the Google gods anyway. Do you know what I mean?
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: We’re seeing more and more, you know, yes, your pages have been crawled, but they’re not being indexed because they’re simply not of the value. They’re not adding to the internet. The internet is vast and you know, I can’t remember, there’s something like X amount of content published every second.
Matthew Forzan: Yep.
Kate Toon: Not all of it deserves to be crawled and indexed.
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: And not all of it can be. So as you said, unless you’re adding, you know, bringing unique experiences, a strategic goal, you know, and I think as well, like you’re bringing some emotion, some of your life experience, your story to it. That content doesn’t need to be published or there are different channels to publish on.
You know, I’m finding a lot more, you know, validity and, you know, short form content on social media channels to build my brand up so that when people get to the search engine, they already know who I am. They like me, they’re searching for my name, my products, and then I can bypass the whole informational queries, commercial queries, all of it and it’s straight brand and navigational. So, you know, and also, you know what, where do you stand? A lot of people are still on threads as well. Oh gosh. You know, you can tell it’s AI content ’cause you’ve used an em dash, ’cause you’ve said up level, ’cause you’ve said skyrocket. You know, I don’t think Google cares.
I think Google just wants quality content. It doesn’t care how you produce it. And some terrible business writers use all those phrases anyway, don’t they?
Matthew Forzan: Yep, yep. Yeah, there, there was a study, I think it came out overnight. I haven’t spent too much time on it, but it was by Ahref, and they were looking at something like 600,000 pieces of copy AI generated, and the old headline was like, doesn’t matter.
And I think that’s interesting because this is the, you know, that bad sentiment in market where if you’re not close enough to it, you can just look at it through a black and white lens and say, AI copy bad.
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: Human copy good. Which, the argument is so strong that it’s the opposite of that in some ways. And so I think that’s important to recognize too, is that if the content is valuable from the viewpoint of your target customer or your user, then that’s what you should be focused on.
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: I think historically the mistake as well is that people have been writing content for search engines. And if you do that now, you’ll probably be sorely disappointed. So something that we try to do is we’ve got articles on our own website, which we know will, you know, they’re not really designed to rank or get new traffic, but we have them as an archive. That we can share with our clients. Some of the things in there we’re sharing with prospects when we’re having conversations like this is, here’s an article we wrote, and that’s value to the user.
Google might think it’s similar to a bunch of other copy and not rank it if we’re talking about what is ai, that kind of thing. But there’s additional value there, and that’s, I think what I want people to focus on is who’s your customer? Who’s your target? How do you add value to them through written word and focus there.
Kate Toon: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of points to bring out there, is that, you know, there’s, no one should feel shamed if they’re using AI to generate content as long as they are adding their own spin to it. Because not all of us are great writers. It’s hard to write really good copy, make it conversational,
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: Make it fun, make it engaging. A lot of us weren’t taught grammar at school. We weren’t taught, you know, taught about sentence length and metre. So if these tools help you be a better writer, no one criticises you if you use, you know, Grammarly. So there’s no harm in using these as long as you’re adding your own context in it. And I love what you mentioned there about having content on your site that’s not necessarily for Google because again, a lot of content is focused on top of funnel brand, brand awareness, come to our site, we know about this.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: But having some real, you know, I think Yoast used to use the term cornerstone in a different context. But having like, you know, 10 to 20 articles that show that you are an expert in your field and they can be used as part of your middle of funnel. So hi, you’ve made contacts with us and you now wanna see that we really are experts in the field of digital automation or website building, here’s an article I wrote on the 20 principles.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: Of WordPress sites, that’s not gonna get used by Google, but it’s a great piece in your funnel to build that know, like, and trust factor with a potential customer, right?
Matthew Forzan: Yeah, absolutely. And SEO lens, it’s building relevancy on your domain, right?
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: About the, the topics that you are strong in. So still benefit there, absolutely.
Kate Toon: And also bottom of funnel in a way, because again, if you’ve got a customer and they’ve only worked with you once, you could then be sending them other articles and saying, Hey, look, we helped you with your, you know, CRM setup, but we also do this. Here’s an article we wrote about it.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: Using your content, instead of just trying to like lure people in, you know, as your milkshake to get people to your yard actually gearing it to grow the relationship with potential clients and to, you know, affirm the relationship and create advocacy with existing clients. Like, oh, you’ve got a friend who’s interested in having SEO done?
Here’s an article you might wanna send them to educate them.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah, that’s right.
Kate Toon: That’s a really, really interesting idea. But I guess, you know, for many of us. We are moving towards what we were gonna call a zero click future. You know, Google is moving from a search engine to an answer engine. It wants to solve everything in the SERPs, and no one goes anywhere.
Facebook is trying to become a silo. Instagram is trying to become a silo. We are not gonna be using the interweb unless we’re literally typing in domain names. What do we do about the zero click future? You know, do we still bother with SEO or do we focus on other channels?
Matthew Forzan: I think we do both.
Kate Toon: Okay, good.
Matthew Forzan: Right, so SEO, if you look at the human condition, right? We seek things, we find them, we, you know, some crazy people, not me.
Kate Toon: We’re hunter gatherers. We’re hunter gatherers.
Matthew Forzan: That’s right. At our core we are still, you know, just above a Neanderthal trying to figure out life, right. So you still have crazy people wanting to climb Everest for some reason, right?
I think people will, you have this push-pull of information where you can go on something like Instagram, you see ads for products you’ve never seen before, and you go, oh, that’s interesting. I’m gonna go buy it now. Right? The search didn’t need to happen, but you also still have the person who has a baby and then wants to go on a journey to find the best pram for themselves.
And so they might go to YouTube, so that’s SEO. They might go to Google, that’s SEO. They might go to ChatGPT, which some people will call GEO, I’d still call it SEO. that I think is going to be there for a long time. It’s going to be several years before the systems know us better than we know ourselves and be able to react in a live environment like that.
So I think, yeah, the shorter answer is we need to be everywhere. When we’re looking at things like YouTube, you mentioned that’s something that AI is, is very obvious in right? You know, you and I are chatting now, like this is a little bit hard to do with ai, so there’s authenticity there and there’s a bit more trust than the em dashes people judge on. Right.
Kate Toon: But, there are tools that can take my voice now and turn this into 27 different other podcasts
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: And, you know, make us both look way hotter. If we were sharing this as a video, that would be good. It’s just how far you wanna take it and whether, let’s be honest. Authenticity is important to a lot of brands, but for some it, you know, it isn’t, do I really want an authentic locksmith, you know, do I really give a shit? You know? And if it’s a short transactional, you know, low cost thing, do I really care that they, you know, made that video hand wove it in their back garden with soil and, and you know, yeast.
Matthew Forzan: No.
Kate Toon: I don’t give a shit. I just want the thing. So, you know.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah. You want, you want to know how soon can they come? How much do they cost? How, you know, what do their reviews look like? So all of those other data points, going back to content strategy.
Kate Toon: Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: I see a lot of other businesses, they don’t publish pricing information on the website.
Kate Toon: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Forzan: And I think what we’re seeing with the likes of ChatGPT is that you don’t necessarily need that to be front and center of your website.
You can put it somewhere in an FAQ and what that does for something like an LLM, ChatGPT is if somebody’s searching, previously would be like locksmith near me. Now they might be searching for what are some locksmiths near me? Which ones are open on a Sunday night? Give me a list of ones that have more than 10 reviews and move forward through that.
Kate Toon: Yeah. Or find me a locksmith that’s under $200 in my local area. You know, it’s like.
Matthew Forzan: That’s right.
Kate Toon: Yeah, exactly.
Matthew Forzan: Yeah. And for it to know that it needs to have the $200 figure on the website somewhere.
Kate Toon: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, a couple of years ago we were all up in arms about voice search and how that was gonna change SEO and the internet and it didn’t have as much impact ’cause it tended to be people saying things like, I mean, I still only ask my devices two questions. What’s the weather today and what time is. Do you know what I mean?
Matthew Forzan: Yeah, yeah.
Kate Toon: I’m not gonna ask it. Who’s the best, you know, business coach and I mean, you’re just not gonna ask stuff like that. And just back to your Everest, point, I just, this is my, one of my favourite quotes. Every dead body on Mount Everest was once a determined individual. So calm, I love that one. So I think we all need to, you know, realize that ChatGPT and AI is Mount Everest. We all need to calm down a little bit. And at least get to base camp. You see, you see what I’m doing here?
Matthew Forzan: Yeah.
Kate Toon: I’ll try and scale right to the top ’cause we may end up a dead body at the top. It’s all still evolving. Everyone these days is an expert in ai. You know, people who knew nothing about it yesterday are releasing courses just as it always happens when something new and shiny comes out.
But I think the main thing is not to be frightened of it, not to feel ashamed if you use it, ’cause there is a lot of shaming out there as well. And I love just the idea of strategy and going right back to basics is AI right, for this particular productivity task? And is it right in terms of, you know, what I’m doing for my SEO?
It doesn’t, you don’t need to be shoehorning AI in if it doesn’t fit. So if you are comfortable writing your own articles and doing your own thing, you don’t need it. Yeah. You just keep going as you are. Look, that was so great Matthew. obviously I found you, well, I’ve known you for years, but I found you via LinkedIn. Where else can everyone else find out more about you and your business?
Matthew Forzan: Yoghurt digital.com au as a domain plug. But yeah, LinkedIn is really the best place to see anything I’m talking about, anything I’m doing, and by extension the business as well.
Kate Toon: Fantastic. Well, we’ve got links to your website, your LinkedIn and your Instagram, so you better put some cool stuff up there before the end of the day. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciated it.
Matthew Forzan: Thank you, Kate. Good to be here.
Kate Toon: So that’s the end of this week’s show. I thought that was really hopeful episode about ai. If you are interested in learning more about AI and SEO, you can head to my I LOVE SEO group on Facebook. But before we go, I like to end the show, the shout outs, one of my lovely listeners, and today it’s from Robyn Smart, who is an amazing website developer.
Uh, she says, great SEO podcast. Kate has a wealth of knowledge. All her podcasts are educational and fun with great SEO tips. Information is up to date. And also showcases real examples of how different types of businesses can implement SEO in their own website and must listen. Thank you so much, Robyn, and thanks to you for listening.
If you have a minute to leave a review, you know, I’d be grateful. We’ll also give you a shout out on the show. All my various bits and bobs are at the recipe for seo success.com. So until next time, happy AIing. Happy GEOing, and happy SEOing. Bye.
