Web hosting and the hidden impact you make on the planet
Now here’s me thinking that being online means I’m pretty green.
My entire business is up in the cloud, with very few physical products, not much post, and a little shed in the back garden that uses minimal electricity.
And I never use my printer, not because I’m green but because I can’t hook it up to my computer properly.
But today’s guest is going to explain how even hosting your website has environmental consequences and some simple steps to minimising your environmental footprint.
Tune in to learn
- What it means to be green online
- How your digital footprint is connected to your carbon footprint
- How climate change is being affected by websites, apps and email
- Common practices online that are more harmful than helpful to the environment
- What steps you can take to reduce your carbon footprint
- Why hosting is a big issue when it comes to being green
- How True Green® can help reduce energy output
- What to focus on when choosing a hosting platform
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About Ray Pastoors
Ray Pastoors is the founder of True Green® – Web Hosting for a Kind Planet.
Ray is passionate about making a difference and helping small businesses do the same. He believes in a clean and green energy future and is an advocate for all things sustainability.
With a curious mind, analytical skills and a commitment to delivering exceptional experiences, Ray is helping to change web hosting for the better in Australia.
Ray is also a familiar face, given he is the endorsed expert for Google Analytics in the Recipe for SEO Success and Digital Marketing Collective membership.
Transcript
Kate Toon
Now here’s me thinking that being online means I’m already pretty green. My entire business is up in the cloud. I have very few physical products, not much post and a little shed in the back garden that uses minimal electricity. And I never use my printer, not because I’m green, but because I can’t work out how to hook it up to my computer properly. But today’s guest is going to explain how even hosting your website has environmental consequences, and give us some simple steps to minimizing our environmental footprint. Hello, my name is Kate toon. I’m head chef at the recipe for SEO success and online learning hub for all things related to search engine optimization and Digital Marketing. And today, I’m talking with Ray Pastoors. Hello, Ray.
Ray Pastoors
Hello, Kate. How are you?
Kate Toon
I’m good. And it’s good to see you. And I’ve taken a little photo of Ray because he looks so environmental today. He is wearing a shirt with leaves on it. He’s got green glasses on. And Ray has flowing locks. I like to call Ray the digital Tarzan. So I could imagine you swinging through the trees Ray? Is that what you do in your time off?
Ray Pastoors
Oh, definitely. Although I do hit the gym sometimes. And you know, the monkey counts, it counts,
Kate Toon
It counts it does. And you’re a big runner as well. So that’s good, too. Well, let me explain who Ray is. For those of you who don’t know, Ray is the founder of true green web hosting for a kind. Planet. Ray is passionate about making a difference in helping small businesses do the same. He believes in a clean and green energy future, and is an advocate for all things sustainability, with a curious mind analytical skills and a commitment to delivering exceptional experiences. Ray is helping to change web hosting for the better in Australia, Ray, many of you already know is a familiar face given he is our endorsed expert for Google Analytics in the recipe for SEO success, and an expert in digital marketing, collective membership. He is also sponsoring the DMC collective Conference, which is happening in Sydney on October in October. So he is all over us. And we love Ray, if there’s although we have him as our kind of Google Analytics expert, his business also covers SEO, Google ads, all kinds of stuff, as well as hosting. So there’s your glorious intro, Ray. But let’s start right with the basics. So you know, you heard my little points there that, you know, I thought being online was already green, what does it mean to be green online?
Ray Pastoors
I suppose it’s a misconception at the end of the day, because we can’t see what goes on behind our computer, or behind everything that we do online. And so it sounds a bit boring. But you know, the poles and wires outside that we kind of see when we’re walking or maybe running the distance, they all connect, you know, to these big, big power stations, which, unfortunately, are still connected mostly to fossil fuels, particularly in Australia. So really, online, our presence, our digital footprint also has a carbon footprint at the end of the day. So whilst we can’t see it, it definitely contributes towards the problem. That is obviously climate change. And particularly, you know, it’s important that we do something about it as well.
Kate Toon
Yeah, so we’re trying to minimize our digital footprint. And, you know, you’ve got some statistics around that, you know, why is that so important? I mean, we know but tell us again,
Ray Pastoors
well, obviously, climate change is real. And we know that it’s an ever changing problem. And the more we kind of shift online, particularly if we think about, you know, our website presence, or even if you know, run social media, all of these things that we’re moving on line away from paper also have an impact, it’s just not as visible to us. So around about now, around the global emissions, it represents about 2% to 3% of global emissions already. And the estimation is that it’s going to go four to 5%. More into the future by 2030. And so this problem is not going away. And if you think about those numbers, small percentage here and there, but if you look at it more narrowed in terms of like the average website, the average website contributes to 211 kilograms of co2 every year. And that’s just for a small business kind of website. So imagine you’re getting lots of traffic, like Kate toon for instance, then of course, you’re going to contribute more and more to that problem. Because the more people that visit your website, the more energy that needs to be consumed as well. And at the end of the day, that energy connects to a power station, which of course we know connects to those fossil fuels.
Kate Toon
It’s really it’s something I had just never thought about before. And I remember when reading about Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining and why that was super problematic because it uses these huge Huge servers that just gobble up fields, and they’re running all the time. And you’ve just connected the dots for me there. But I think for many of us running our business, we may not realize that some of the things we’re doing in our business are not green. So what are some things that you see businesses doing? That they may think they’re doing a good, I’m babbling, I gotta get my sentence, right. Some things that businesses do that may not be as green as we think they are, there we go, I got it out.
Ray Pastoors
There you go. Fair enough. Well, the first thing is obviously the obvious one, which is storing things on the cloud, particularly if you’ve got like an auto backup solution on your computer. And it’s backing up all those files, right? It might sound smart, because obviously, you want your files to be saved for a rainy day. But do you really want every single file to be in the cloud, you’ve got to consider that, right. And you’ve also got to remember that, over time, you’re going to get lots and lots of files, which obviously create lots and lots of energy, because at the end of the day, they need to be stored somewhere. And they get stored in a data center, which is hidden away from you. But it is a problem, because it’s using more and more energy. And people see that, you know, they mistake it for just power. But in actual fact, these data centers use a whole lot of water, as well to keep the cooling on and to keep them you know, humming basically. And then you’ve also got the after effects, which is the raw materials. So when you think of obviously, technology, there’s a waste problem as well, particularly with certain minerals and stuff that goes on. So the obvious one, first one, the cloud, don’t store every single thing on there if you don’t need to, and try and do a spring clean as well. Another common one, which I see from time to time, is uploading videos directly to your website. This can obviously slow down the page, but also increases the amount of energy that needs to be consumed. Whereas if you use something, for example, like YouTube, you can embed the video on your website, and then allow the user to play it. A lot of people are getting into this moment of oh, I want my video to autoplay, but it’s actually bad for the environment and bad for the user as well. You want them to kind of choose their own adventure, right? Yeah,
Kate Toon
yeah, I, we mentioned, you know, not autoplaying videos from a UX point of view. You know, most people are watching videos at work when they probably should be doing work. And also, we mentioned hosting our videos on Vimeo and YouTube from a speed point of view, because it speeds your site up. But it’s really interesting to hear that it has an environmental impact as well. So you’ve covered off the cloud videos, how about sending things over the internet? Let’s talk about that.
Ray Pastoors
Yes, I think it’s easy to just send a large file to people. But you can actually compress these tools, you know, my favorite one. And it’s a free tool, tiny png.com. It also does JPEG images as well, which is just a file format. You can also use small PDF, another free tool, you get I think two or three compressions a day, but allows you to compress the file for the web so that when you are sending it across, it’s not this huge file that doesn’t need all that extra energy when someone consumes that, right. Because if you’re sending it from your server, let’s say your email to your friends, maybe even their overseas, that’s a whole lot of energy that needs to be created in order for that to happen. So it’s important for us to be mindful of, you know, sending large files, if you want to, if you’re sending you know multiple people, maybe it’s like an ebook, for example, you may want to store it on Google Cloud. And just remember that it’s there. So that if you are doing your spring clean, you obviously don’t delete it by mistake. And of course, that you only have the ones that you need at the end of the day. Because if you do it via the cloud, for example, in that example, what it means is that someone doesn’t have to download such a large file every time, right? And that again, creates more energy. So really important to be mindful of that.
Kate Toon
And then emails, how can emails hurt the environment? This is crazy.
Ray Pastoors
Well, they say the average email is about one gram of carbon. As soon as you add those attachments in or you start to make them lengthy, they can go from 20 grams upwards, sometimes even 40 grams depending on the attachment like a PDF for example. So that’s one of the key ones. The other one is when we got these long chain emails and we keep emailing each other or we do my pet dislike which is reply or no one loves the reply while you don’t need to say thanks a million times it’s just adding to the footprint so if you want an excuse to get out of the Reply All Trent then of course just use the environment. It’s a really good
Kate Toon
Yeah, don’t see CC me, it’s bad for the environment. Does that mean things like Slack and messenger are better than email? Like Are we better off using slack and messenger than sending lots of emails back and forth?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, it is or even just picking up this sounds old school but picking up the phone because often what happens with email is to get to somewhere in terms of sending each other, we have to go back and forth. So tools like Slack, or even just picking up the phone are really good to get clarity. And you know, it might sound a bit old school, but you’ll be surprised at how often you resolve something when you talk to someone directly. Rather than going back and forth on emails. It just gets too messy at the end of the day.
Kate Toon
Yeah, so that’s emails and files. And then I think, obviously, we’re aware, and you mentioned at the beginning, the big fat websites cause a problem, we know they cause a problem for feed. We know they cause a problem from for an SEO and usability but they cause a problem from the environment to
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, definitely. Because if your website needs to load all these different files, particularly, you know, let’s say you’ve got large images, or a video that’s on autoplay, that takes time to obviously load and it creates more energy pressures as well. So you can imagine, you know, if you look at it and see someone trying to run a unicycle in order to power the smoothie, you can imagine how much harder they need to pedal to the metal, to be able to actually get that website to load. And you don’t want that because people are impatient. Anyway, they’re like a fast loading website. And of course, we don’t want to contribute to the problem in terms of the environment as well.
Kate Toon
Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, when it comes to environmental issues, it can feel overwhelming, like, what’s the point of us recycling our yogurt tubs when China is doing China. But I guess all of this contributes, and you know, at least you can go to bed at night, knowing that you’re maybe 1% less bad than you used to be. We’re going to move into hosting now. Because obviously, you have founded an entire company, a new brand based on this. Many people listening to this will be using one of the big hosting companies, international hosting companies, what are some of the issues with hosting with a hosting company that isn’t in your local area?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, sure. So if you’ve chosen a host, particularly an international company, and your server is particularly you know, in the United States, or even further away, what that means is you get a problem called latency, which is jargon for delay time, basically. So imagine I’m in Australia, I’m going to keep tunes website, I go on there, and waiting for it to load, it’s going to be really fast, because it’s in Australia. But imagine the server was overseas, what it now needs to do is communicate and transfer all that information to all the different towers, and the satellites to send that website to that user in a quick amount of time. So it’s actually beneficial for you in terms of speed, but also the environment to choose a local server. So if most of your customers are in Australia, it makes sense that your server is also located here down on that.
Kate Toon
So let’s dig into hosting a little bit more. So your new business, tree green is promote sustainable hosting, what does that mean? What do we consider sustainability when we talk about hosting?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, no, definitely so sustainable when it comes to hosting. There’s a lot of greenwashing out there. And that’s why we came up with the name true green, because at the end of the day, we don’t want it to be hogwash, we actually want it to be meaningful impact. And that’s what we’re all about. So really, from a sustainability point of view, there’s different ways that you can kind of achieve this, some companies out there, they’ll just plant one tree when you sign up, and then it kind of ends there. And they’re like, oh, Pat, on the back, we’ve done our job, right. There’s also the ones that you know, plant trees, depending how many websites they have. And then that’s it for them. And then of course, you’ve got those shiny, glossy providers, which the you know, they have the policy, Mr. lawn with the Corporate Social Responsibility guidelines. And there’s a bit of chest-beating going, Oh, how amazing we are, we’re supporting this environmental cause. And again, it just stops there. But really true sustainability is taking a multi approach, right? It’s about looking at all those things and working out how can we make a measurable difference. So for us, it’s not just about planting trees, it’s actually about measuring your estimated carbon footprint, working with great partners like carbon neutral that we work with the trusted and accredited provider, as well as the green Web Foundation to work out how much carbon you’re likely to contribute towards each year, based on your actual page views. So that’s really important.
Kate Toon
Wow, I’m just trying to get my head around that. So also, I guess there’s, I guess, there’s not much regulation in this space. So while they may be claiming they’re planting a tree, how they work, you know, where’s the tree? I don’t know, you know. So, you know, when we are say that we move across this to your fantastic hosting company. What are the things should we be thinking about? What What should we consider when we’re thinking about hosting? So you’ve mentioned opting for a sustainable prep provider, but then you’ve, you know, what are some tips that we can do to improve things ourselves?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, definitely. At the end of the day, it’s all about these apps that you take as well. So, obviously choosing that local server, like we said before, minimizing your impact by reducing the amount of time it takes for your website to load, even if you choose a sustainable provider. At the end of the day, we’re all connected to the same electricity grid. So rather than just offsetting those emissions, you can contribute towards the solution as well. So you can be a part of that. So I think that’s really important.
Kate Toon
Yeah, and just I mean, you mentioned in, you know, when we’re talking before about keeping your presence, tidy, doing a spring clean, you know, maybe there’s a great idea for a lead magnet for TruGreen to give us a list of things we can do, because, you know, a lot of these things we’re doing from an SEO perspective, but people might not realize, and I’m also guessing that, you know, me, sitting watching 100 earwax videos on Tiktok is not only not good for my health, but it’s not good for the health of the planet as well, because I’m just streaming content. So streaming content is also an issue like how we, what we consume, you know, you’ve got a little note here we are what we eat, and we are what we consume online, you want to talk to that little bit like how we interact with the internet as well.
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, definitely, the more we interact, obviously, the more footprint is going to create. And so like you said, streaming is a big one, like you think of obviously brands like Netflix, for example, a lot of people are using that instead of downloading stuff. Now, that actually creates a lot more energy, because every time you want to load that favorite show or favorite movie, you’ve then got to connect to the server. And that’s got to create more energy in order to for that to happen. Whereas in the olden days, you would just get a DVD and bring that across, you wouldn’t have to do it, you know, multiple times, and then that DVD would be recycled, reused, go to, you know, maybe Nona, or someone else, even a friend. And it would kind of go through a lifecycle. So it’s really interesting how, even though we’re moving away from material things that we can see, we forget how obvious it is that that also has an impact, and what can we do about it? And that’s the thing, it’s not visible to the naked eye.
Kate Toon
I think that’s it, I think it’s, you know, a tangible physical thing, you know, and I thought getting a DVD is bad because of the plastic and whatever, but they last forever. Thankfully, I’m very dull. And I tend to watch the same DVDs and blu rays remember them? Again, and again. And again. I don’t know why it’s a comfort thing. Look, so thank you for all of that I really have opened my eyes to something that I had not considered at all. Maybe I’ll watch a few less earwax videos tonight. But now, honestly, it’s shameless plug time. So you are the founder of this amazingly company, true web hosting. Just tell us all about us sell it to us. Why is it awesome? Why should we go and check it out?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, definitely. So it actually has been around for some time, it was under my other business. And it started as a passion project, because I wanted to make a meaningful impact on the planet, as soon as I found out that there was an impact, because I too, wasn’t aware. And it’s not something that a lot of companies want to promote, obviously, that there is that kind of impact on the planet. And so by hearing that, I also heard from a lot of small businesses, particularly, that they wanted to support clean energy, you know, like solar, as well as climate projects. But because they were running a small operation, they felt like they couldn’t make a difference. And so I thought that was really sad. I was like, How can we be gearing up to a clean energy future that’s all about, you know, big corporations, why don’t we let in the little guys who are the bread and butter of the economy to be part of this. And that’s why I’m really passionate about sustainability on the internet, and why True Green was formed. And so true green is basically about standing on its own two feet. It’s about making websites simpler, because we know web hosting sucks, let’s be honest. And we want to be also kind to the planet. So we want you to be part of the journey with us. And we want to deliver something that’s truly awesome. And not like, you know, the big ivory towers of customer service that you kind of get from those bigger companies, we want to be bold, we want to be different. And we want to help you so that you can get on, you know, the day with your business. Because even as a small business owner, myself, I understand the complexities that come with technology. I hear it all the time. And also all those hiccups, that kind of happen when you join a hosting company. So I’m well aware of all those challenges. And so for us at TruGreen, we want to make it so simple that you don’t need to worry about it as much. But of course, we still have, you know the security features, and the reliability that you would need from a hosting provider. And it’s not just a small team, we have a 24/7 technical support team. So it’s not just like, you’re going to a business that’s only open during business hours, you can actually talk to someone if you’re up at 3am and you’ve got a bit of coffee in your system. Of course, you can talk to our team and they’re more than happy to help and the philosophy that we have at True Green and it’s even in our signature when we reply to someone online is that jargon is a naughty word. So if We’re being naughty, you tell us, and then we’ll fix it up, right? Because for us jargon is that we don’t want that out there. We don’t want to confuse you any more. We as a team want to make sure that we make it easy as possible. So you can get on with your day.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I love that. I mean, when we when we think about hosting, obviously, for me, you know, most people were looking at, you know, the size of the servers. And now we’ll be thinking about the location of the servers, we’ll be looking at uptime, security, reliability. But honestly, for me, most of the my choices about hosting come down to customer service, how available is the team? How helpful is the team? Unfortunately, my hosting company who’s who will remain nameless, have now started to charge for really any kind of support that goes beyond a simple yes or no, which, of course, is a relatively great business model for them. But since I’m already paying a premium for the hosting, one would assume that if something goes wrong with that hosting, which often is their fault, that I shouldn’t have to pay for them to investigate that. So let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about how you’re different from the big brands, number one, your servers are in Australia. So that’s a big thing. You know, if your primary audience is in Australia, then you genuinely want to be hosting in Australia. And if you look at a lot of the big companies, a lot of them are hosting out of the US or the closest they can get is Singapore, or wherever. So you know, that’s a big sell. What are some of the other things that we should know? That makes your brand different?
Ray Pastoors
No, definitely. So like I said before, in order to be true green, we take a multi layer approach. So we also donate 1% of our revenue to environmental causes. And the initiative that we choose to support is the solar for Schools program. So literally, you’re supporting a company that is allowing schools in remote communities as part of the it’s time Foundation, to ditch fossil fuel generators for solar energy, which we know is cleaner as well. And so the other thing, in terms of I guess what we provide is it’s not just about 24/7 support, but we’ve also considered, how do we deliver the best onboarding experience. So when you join us, whether you are new to hosting or whether you’re existing, we’ve thought about all those parts of the journey, and we’ve gone you know, these other hosting companies really suck at delivering this experience, considering how many times new customers join all the time, how can we support you, so we’ve actually developed videos, and materials to guide you on that journey, and to really take you on that path when you want to. And so one of those things is, for example, a video even with myself, the founder, so you can kind of get the gist of how things work. And you can ask us any question you like, as well. And so the whole idea for us is we’re going to continue to build our knowledge base with resources that aren’t just those really complicated jargon heavy. You know, how to help article Yeah, sickly from Google, we know what that’s about. Yeah.
Kate Toon
But even hosting companies, you know, you’re trying to wade through, they’re like, oh, just check out our customer service. And you try and wade through the articles, and none of it makes any sense at all. The other thing I love, you know, you know, working on your not jargon, being a bit of a naughty word. I love that that’s kind of brand value for tree green. But what I love is this idea of this annual carbon report card, can you tell me what that is?
Ray Pastoors
Yeah, so because it is all about being true green, we’re going to show you what impact you’re having, and then be part of that as well. So like I said, before, we measure how many actual page views you get. And we use that based on the service statistics, rather than, for example, Google Analytics. So Google Analytics, which some of you may be familiar with, I know who I am. And of course case that one measures traffic, but it also excludes bots. And so we said, you know, we should actually include bots, because they obviously create energy as well. So we use your real pageviews. So they’re coming through to your server. And then we estimate your carbon footprint and show that to you in an annual carbon report count. So we’re the first hosting company to acknowledge in the world that actually developed this annual carbon report card idea. But in addition to that, that actually equates to a carbon offsets through our partner carbon neutral. So just to give you an idea, since we started green web hosting is a passion project, we’ve actually offset 32 tonnes of carbon. Now 32 tonnes of carbon is equivalent to around, I would say, 3 million smartphones being charged based on the EPA statistics. So that’s a lot. And then to put it in even more perspective, it’s about I believe, 119 or 120,000 kilometers distance. So if you think about where Australia is to the USA, it’s about 15,000 125 kilometers. So you can imagine the distance of a car traveling over 119,000 kilometers a year. I don’t think many of us do that, let’s be honest. But that’s the impact that we’ve actually had in offsetting that Carbon Footprint just because we’ve allowed you to be part of the journey. So we could easily just, you know, plant a tree, support an environmental cause, but we do much more by ensuring you’re part of that journey and know your impact as well, particularly as your business grows to.
Kate Toon
Amazing. Okay, so imagine our listeners are sold, they’re like, right, I want to move to true green.au. But let’s be honest, the idea of moving hosting companies feels hard. You know, it’s like, I’ve been meaning to change my home insurance provider for like, five years, and I never get around to it, because it’s just that it’s on my list, but it’s right at the bottom. How do you make that easier for people? How do I go about moving my hosting to tree green?
Ray Pastoors
No, no, definitely, all you have to do is go to true green.au. Yes, when using that new domain name, true green.au. And you can find a plan that suits you. Or you can ask our team for help. So if you’re looking at the plan options, and you’re like, Ray, I’m not sure which one, you know, I should choose, you can allow us to analyze that for you. And we’ll do that for free. And then when you sign up, we’ve got an easy switch form as well. So basically, it breaks down all the steps that you need to take. And then you can leave the rest to us, we’ll handle it all for you and keep you updated along the journey as well.
Kate Toon
So I’m assuming that you offer like starter packages, mid packages, do you also have a dedicated hosting, so like my own my own hosting, so I don’t have to share it with anybody else
Ray Pastoors
we do. So we use that as like a custom kind of jobs. So again, you can just talk to us, tell us what you kind of need. Yeah, and then we can show you those options and how much it’s gonna cost. So that you are aware of Yeah, how much is involved for your business
Kate Toon
Tony Cosentino, if you’re listening, we’re going to be we’re going to be having some emails back and forth is Ray because I think I’m ready to move but disappointed with my big provider lack of customer service, and also had no idea about this impact. So looking forward to becoming a true green beast. Right. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Where can we learn more about true green, you gave us the URL there? If you have you got your socials? Or is that an environmentally friendly,
Ray Pastoors
and then alone, we will be on social. At the moment, we’re at Truegreen.au. And of course, if you’re going to the digital marketing collective conference, you will get a nice eco bamboo charger, which I’m showing on the screen now, which you probably can’t see. It’s beautiful people. It’s beautiful. And it’s a wireless charger for your phone and low voltage. So it’s not too much of an impact as well. And it’s also recyclable through two rings. So we thought of everything. Even when it comes down to promotional stuff. We have to be what we say well, yeah, right. Yeah, that’s what we’re all about.
Kate Toon
Yeah, I mean, it’s something that I’ve thought about for the conferences. Yeah, we’re not having goodie bags. For the paper and plastic crap, we’ve got very minimal, minimal gifted and a lot of kind of digital certificates rather than physical products just to kind of really manage that impacted No balloons. It’s very hard to find environmentally friendly balloons. So we’re not having any no glitter walls, and no massive neon lights, promoting the logo, just keeping it super simple. And letting the content speak for itself, just as true greens. Hosting speaks for itself. So as I’ve mentioned, Ray is an expert in the digital marketing collective. He’s also we’re going to be doing a live session across all our Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn soon to talk through all of this again. So if you have questions for Ray, keep an eye out for that. I’ll put a link to that event. In the show notes. You can also check out a picture of Ray, looking at digital Tarzan, and yeah, you’ll find him online at true green. So thanks so much for coming on the show.
Ray Pastoors
Thank you, always a pleasure.
Kate Toon
So that’s the end of this week’s show. If you have questions about hosting true green, sustainability online and re pastores is in the I love Seo group on Facebook. Honestly, that opened my eyes. I never knew about any of that. And you know, a lot of it hadn’t occurred to me so. Yep. You know, when I say I’m going to be moving over my hosting, that’s not something I’m saying just to sound cool. I think I think that’s a move that I’m gonna make. So thanks to Simone Pavils from Australia, for listening to the show. We’ve got a lovely review from you. It says Love, love, love this podcast. Thank you. Kate brings us so much great info. With so many high value amazing guests. I look forward to every single episode, Simone, You’re a legend. If you enjoyed the show, please take a minute to leave us a little review on iTunes or wherever you heard the show. It’s really helpful, helps other people find the show helps us rank well in iTunes as well. You can also check out the show notes for this episode where you can learn more about true green and repair stores. You can check out the useful links and the comments about the show. So until next time, happy SEO ing
